tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31099203.post1441692015476718694..comments2023-07-23T04:50:58.496-04:00Comments on All Politics Is Local: A More Comprehensive Argument Against BC-STVAaron Ginsberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10586651764906428965noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31099203.post-42447250780909173822009-05-03T02:43:00.000-04:002009-05-03T02:43:00.000-04:00Aaron, probably the strongest pro-argument that yo...Aaron, probably the strongest pro-argument that you have left out is that MLAs and parties would have little choice but to accept greater accountability to their constituents. With candidates from the same party competing with each other for a district's seats, voters will be able to replace a Liberal with another Liberal. Add to that STV's much stronger record of electing independents and you have a recipe for redistributing power from the party insiders to the voters.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08377902650190823110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31099203.post-29278259902190683182009-04-23T01:39:00.000-04:002009-04-23T01:39:00.000-04:00John, this is a massive tangent that I'd like to w...John, this is a massive tangent that I'd like to wrap up. The rules are set. The rules are known. They haven't been changed. Is the field a little slanted? Maybe. Any advocate for change is going to face an uphill fight. I don't think you can accuse the Premier who set up the Citizens' Assembly and will have held two referendums on the subject of being anti-change. If it wasn't for Gordon Campbell, this would never have gotten on the ballot.Aaron Ginsberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10586651764906428965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31099203.post-40025164094683928042009-04-22T12:12:00.000-04:002009-04-22T12:12:00.000-04:00But Aaron EVERY riding is BC gave OVER 50% support...But Aaron EVERY riding is BC gave OVER 50% support to STV in the last election, I fully agree with needing 50% across even 2/3 of ridings, but needing 60% support overall is far beyond the standard of amending our constitution. I'd say 58% support was pretty damn substantial and should have been sufficient by any reasonable standard.<br /><br />We're not talking about even more drastic change than the Charlotte Accord so your comparison to the Clarity Act is bizarre, that's about separation from the country, not changing the electoral system. I think Charlotte is the much better parallel since that would have changed our electoral system (for the upper house) and many many more significant changes. The same standard should be used over 50% support across 2/3 of ridings and let's say even 55% overall if you need better than 50%+1.Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31099203.post-80811940787107491942009-04-21T12:03:00.000-04:002009-04-21T12:03:00.000-04:00The 60% threshold is consistent with the principle...The 60% threshold is consistent with the principle established in the clarity act that you don't make massive change on a 50% +1 vote.Aaron Ginsberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10586651764906428965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31099203.post-46708549567326676902009-04-21T11:59:00.000-04:002009-04-21T11:59:00.000-04:00The first threshold of 50% support in 60% of the r...The first threshold of 50% support in 60% of the ridings echos the constitution.Aaron Ginsberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10586651764906428965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31099203.post-6663959492669839572009-04-21T02:43:00.000-04:002009-04-21T02:43:00.000-04:00"The rules were and still are similar to the rules..."The rules were and still are similar to the rules for amending the Constitution."<br /><br />I'm sorry but that couldn't go unchallenged, you should have looked that up before commenting.<br />You should know that the amendment of the constitution only requires 50% support from at least 7 provinces (as long those 7 make up 50% of the population). <br /><br />So as long as Ontario and 6 other provinces gave 50%+1 support then ANY constitutional amendment can pass. That's a fact.<br /><br />I'm amazed you think the threshold should be much higher for changing our electoral system than it was for the Charlotte Accords which would have dramatically re-shaped our federation including creating a Triple-E Senate. That would have had far more reaching results than changing from FPTP for the lower House.<br /><br />I think it's pretty damn fair to say that 58% support for changing the electoral system is pretty overwhelming and under any fair standard would have been sufficient to move forward, but hopefully 60% is achieved this time and the trend identified in the latest poll showing 65% support holds.Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31099203.post-48052411974452538792009-04-19T13:05:00.000-04:002009-04-19T13:05:00.000-04:00So, in the choice between a system that is truly a...So, in the choice between a system that is truly awful, and a system that is less than perfect, your choice is truly awful? This makes sense for what reason?<br /><br />Even allowing the strawman and red-herring arguments you use against STV, it's still a vastly better system than the truly atrocious FPTP system.Marknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31099203.post-75316928796149994382009-04-19T10:08:00.000-04:002009-04-19T10:08:00.000-04:00Spudster, your honest belief is not backed up by t...Spudster, your honest belief is not backed up by the proposal on the table. You aren't being asked to vote for the idea version of BC-STV that you may like. Frankly, I'd be surprised to see British Columbians demanding more politicians any time soon. Also, an overwhelming majority of ridings would have fewer than 5 MLA's under the proposed boundaries. Finally, strategic voting won't go away, it will just change to reflect the new reality.<br /><br />Skinny, the rules were clear before the vote. The rules were and still are similar to the rules for amending the Constitution. The vote failed. The only reason I brought that up is to point out the absurdity of the "it's popular in Ireland" argument. The power of the Premier's office has nothing to do with the electoral system. Even if STV produces more minority governments (something its official advocates deny), there's no guarantee of more power for the backbench MLA. Ask a member in Stephen Harper's caucus how empowered they feel by having a minority government.Aaron Ginsberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10586651764906428965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31099203.post-8215972293975666852009-04-19T08:30:00.000-04:002009-04-19T08:30:00.000-04:00You mentioned that Canadians rejected BC-STV once....You mentioned that Canadians rejected BC-STV once. Actually, 58% of British Columbians supported BC-STV in the 2005 referendum. I hardly call that a rejection. A majority of voting British Columbians supported BC-STV; the government rejected the result of the majority.<br /><br />You seem to want to keep the status-quo antiquated First-Past-the-Post voting system in perpetuity. The First-Past-the-Post voting system gives the premier and his inner staff absolute power over all decision making in the province. The MLAs have very little power vis-à-vis the inner staff. The legislature is little better than a rubber-stamp parliament.Skinny Dipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12818163310102120130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31099203.post-72537838558124755902009-04-19T08:12:00.000-04:002009-04-19T08:12:00.000-04:00Your third argument against proportionality is a l...Your third argument against proportionality is a little misleading. While you are right to say that any party with more than 50% of the seats in a legislature will hold a majority government, the fact remains that BC-STV is much more likely to result in minority governments that first past the post. Once a districts elects 5 or more candidates, the system then becomes proportional enough that parties with mid levels of support can expect a seat. Also, preferential ballots allow people to vote across party lines, which will make the results more proportional than what the droop quota percentage may suggest.<br /><br />There is one very valid argument about BC-STV and it stems from the size of the proposed ridings. I come from a large FPTP riding and this is a big problem. However, I have an honest belief that the number of seats in the legislature will be increased dramatically after BC-STV is voted in because public sentiment will call for such a thing to happen. Once the number of seats are increased by a large margin, the size of ridings will not be so much of a concern.<br /><br />Finally, your dismissal of BC-STV promoting ideological diversity is incorrect. Our current system for election forces voters to strategically vote for the party most likely to win that least offends them. For Greens, this often means being forced to vote NDP. For BC Conservatives, this often means voting BC Liberal. Under BC-STV, people who support less popular parties are free to vote for those parties while still ensuring that their vote will hold weight if the party or candidate they voted for wasn't popular enough to win. This is a much greater reflection of ideological diversity than our current first past the post system which encourages voters to vote for the lesser of two evils.Spudsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07620052230106127550noreply@blogger.com